#34 Relationships & Responsibility | with NXIVM survivor Kelly Thiel

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Cults are sort of like a spectrum, like a lot of things.

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And now, since coming out of NXIVM, I look through a lens to make sure

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that what I'm getting involved in doesn't have that bad energy of a cult.

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Cults really run a range of that crazy that we're talking about, all the way

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down to small one on one relationships.

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And people don't really recognize that.

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And when we look at some of the trends that are happening in society now...

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It's quite frightening, isn't it?

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It is, and I think any time one person or group wants control, they're going

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to use these control-like tools.

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It's going to happen, and it's been happening.

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It's just now that we're starting to have the conversation about it.

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All of us are looking to really expand ourselves and what next.

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This gives you such a brilliant insight.

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As you said so beautifully, if you want to.

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Okay, here's a really good starting place for where you can really go.

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Here is a glimmer of what might be coming in your life if you

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really work through these.

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So, I am absolutely delighted today to introduce, back for the second time

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on my podcast, the Live, Love, Learn podcast, the wonderful Kelly Thiel.

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And before we really get going today, I just want to tell you

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all a little bit more about Kelly.

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For those of you that haven't seen our first interview,

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um, the link will be below.

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But Kelly is multi talented.

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She's an accomplished author, speaker, voice actress, consultant, and the

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driving force behind Be Glorious.

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Kelly has spent her life seeking a feeling of completeness.

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I think we can all identify with that.

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A spiritual awakening that she was sure she would achieve, but no matter

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how many workshops she took, she never seemed to find the answer.

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I'm laughing here, Kelly.

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I can identify with this.

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Now, last time we really talked about Kelly's experience of

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escaping and what she's learned since leaving the NXIVM cult.

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And she realized that the answers weren't outside of herself, she

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could only find them within.

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So at that time, Kelly, you published your first brilliant book, Unapologetically

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Glorious, which is very well used here.

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Um, and it really is.

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It's a best selling memoir.

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It's hilariously funny at times, but it's brutally honest peek

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into your life and your journey.

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And now you've also created a book club guide to go along with

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this memoir, which is fantastic.

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So your experience with NXIVM became its own kind of awakening, facing the hard

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truth that you really needed to fight to take back control of your destiny.

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Because as humans, we're vulnerable to those who prey on our power.

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And oh my goodness, how, how relevant is that?

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Kelly's work through Be Glorious focuses on the golden toolkit that we each

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carry within us and by acknowledging our power and using the tools within

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us, we can improve our interaction with the world and with ourselves, I mean.

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We had such a lovely talk last time, Kelly, and we went on

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some very important issues.

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Um, so I'm really looking forward to having a catch up to see

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what's changed since that time.

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So how are you doing and what have you been up to?

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Well, I'm doing great.

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We are having a heat wave here, and I'm upstairs in a little

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attic studio, and it is hot.

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So, if I do this a lot, that's, that's why.

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Um, I have, um, been, actually right now, as we speak, I've

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taken a little bit of a break.

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So, I gave myself about a three month break.

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Uh, with no social media really or anything.

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I'm doing this show because I love you so much.

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Um, but I, um, took some time to start just sort of reevaluate where I was at.

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And I think it's like really important for people to do that

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once in a while, take a breath and kind of think about where you're at.

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So.

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I'm doing that right now and um, I'm planning on I have

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another project coming up.

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Um, when I get ready, uh, they're just kind of waiting for me

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to, to say yes to get going.

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Um, it will either be a project about my book or possibly a project that

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came about in the last few months that I really can't talk about.

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It doesn't have a lot to do with me at all, which is kind of what I

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like because I'd really rather have.

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A project that is more humanitarian in a way that's actually going to help people,

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um, than what I kind of call a vanity project, which would be about my book,

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although I might be able to do both.

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So that's kind of where I'm at right now.

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That's so exciting.

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And I think, you know, you saying about taking a break because you have been

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on such a journey since you really came very much into the public eye.

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I mean, obviously you've been well known in the other areas of

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your work for a long while, but.

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There's been a huge, huge interest in cults and cult behavior.

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I mean, we're seeing it all over the YouTube, all over the media, and I think

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because when you look at what's going on in the greater world, so to speak,

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and even if you're not supposedly in a cult, there's so much cult like behavior

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affecting us in all areas of the society.

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And how have you seen, I mean, you've been on such a rollercoaster since you've...

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Left NXIVM and everything has blown up about that.

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What's your perception about as society?

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What we have learned and how vulnerable we are to this behavior.

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Yes, that's a great question.

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Prior to NXIVM I didn't know very much about cults at all.

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I Considered a cult like Charles Manson or one of those, you know,

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crazy things that are in the news.

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So now I think having gone through the NXIVM experience and spoken so much

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about it and learned so much about it from the professionals, you know people

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who really understand the workings of cults how to deprogram people Um, I

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have learned that the conversation is going to keep going for a long time.

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That's the first thing I learned.

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At first, I thought, well, it's going to be one of those, a

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flash in the pan type thing.

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But as I see that cults really run a range of that crazy that we're talking

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about all the way down to small one on one relationships, you know, an

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abusive marriage or abusive friendship.

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And people don't really recognize that, but that really has cult like behavior.

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And so.

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cults are sort of like a spectrum, like a lot of things.

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And now since coming out of NXIVM, I look through a lens

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that always looks for cults.

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I'm not out there looking for cults, but I run everything I do through that lens to

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make sure that what I'm getting involved in doesn't have that bad energy of a cult.

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It doesn't have that possibility that there's control involved

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from someone else, or I'm always checking myself for control as well.

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Am I trying to control the situation?

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Am I trying to control other people, which is a normal human thing?

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We We do that, but I like to keep an eye on all of that.

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So I look at it in the big picture, and I think now that so many people

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are talking about cults, you see it in the news, you see people

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talking on YouTube, everywhere else.

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The conversation is coming home now.

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So people are able to see this in a much bigger picture.

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In my church.

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Does that have cult like, uh, spectrum in it?

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Hopefully not.

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But does my, my school or my kid's friend group or whatever.

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So the conversation is a good one because it involves everything and it keeps people

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in a healthier situation if you can spot those degrees of cult like behavior.

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I couldn't agree with you more.

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I, again, like you, Kelly, I mean, until the last couple of years, I

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hadn't thought about cults at all.

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I really hadn't.

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And then, with taking more of an interest in what's going on politically,

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globally, since the pandemic, et cetera, my whole worldview has really changed.

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And when you change that, I can now recognize so many

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circumstances from the past.

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Where I can recognize all these behavioral traits.

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Not only I can recognize it in work environments, I can recognize it a lot

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in some of the holistic therapy groups that I've been part of and things.

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And the reason why I think it's so important is not to over dramatize

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things, but to see where, to some extent, my feelings are what the

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conclusion I've come to is to some extent, we're all mind controlled.

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We're mind controlled by the media.

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We're mind controlled by education systems, our upbringings.

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Now, that's part and parcel in some respects of being human, but it can

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very easily, and I think it has for a lot of people, crossed over into

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something really, really damaging.

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And when we look at some of the trends that are happening in society now,

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it's quite frightening, isn't it?

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It is, and I think any time one person or group wants control, they're going

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to use these control-like tools.

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It's going to happen, and it's been happening.

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Forever.

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It's just now that we're starting to have the conversation

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about it and actually see.

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So in a way, all these cults coming up to the surface and all the, you

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know, interesting documentaries and everything that are happening

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around these is a good thing.

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I look at it as a very good thing where before I looked at it as Oh my gosh.

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I hope this is, I can't wait till this is all over and passed.

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Well, it's not going to pass.

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I mean, the conversation may not be so much around cults, but like

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I said, it has been happening for a long time and it's time that we all as

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individuals start to recognize these things and treat other people like

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human beings and recognize when we might be the ones wanting to control.

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Maybe not in a cult like way, but Pull back on that way.

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This isn't really where where I should be.

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This isn't my business and I have no right to try to control this person.

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I love it.

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I absolutely love it.

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I just wanted to say that today's episode is sponsored by

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ASEA Redox Signaling Molecules.

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a huge other product range for us.

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of something that my whole family, both four legged and two legged, take

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every single day, plus also something that all the clients I work with,

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again, four legged and two legged, it's number one on my priority list.

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Well, part of what I do what I'm passionate about is understanding the

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Um, the more you know, the more sometimes you wish you didn't

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know, but the pollution in the air, in the water, in the food.

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the control of our minds, the propaganda.

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But one of the things that we can do is take back

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responsibility for our own health.

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Now, every single cell of our body, whether we're an animal, whether we're one

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of the dogs in the backgrounds or one of my plants, contain these redox signaling

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If your brain cells are healthy, your brain's healthy, but just

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like a mobile phone, most of us have got mobile phones that we.

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We use on a routine basis now, but that mobile phone, regardless of

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whether you've got the latest model is completely useless without a signal.

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So what does this technology do?

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we age, we make less of them.

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So personally, I wouldn't be without it.

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My sleep's better.

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My energy levels are better.

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My mood's better.

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My mobility is better.

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If you want to find out more, the details are below, but I'm so grateful

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that this came into my life and I'm so grateful I can share it with others.

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I hope you love it as much as I do.

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Let me know.

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You mentioned that you'd had a bit of a break a few months off the break.

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And I think there's so much learning that can happen when

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we give ourselves that time.

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I mean, what are some of the realizations that you've come to

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within that time for you personally?

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Well, first of all, uh, I have had the time to actually look

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at my relationships in my life.

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So that's been one thing that I've been doing.

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And I have had, I've done actually some soul searching.

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I'm so glad you asked this because two nights ago, I actually was up all night.

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Uh, all night.

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I've never been up.

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I don't think all my life, all my all night and probably since my teens,

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but I was really struggling with the relationship and that time that I took as

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hard as it was, I really came to some huge epiphanies about my responsibility in the

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relationship as well as the other person.

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But I came to this place was like, look, I'm ready to own my part now.

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Right.

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Cause it's hard.

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It's there's so vulnerable to be in relationship with people.

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And so if I hadn't taken that time, I wouldn't have been able to take a whole

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night, not that I chose to do that.

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It sort of just came up where I could.

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Knew that I would be okay the next day because I could sleep off

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and on the next day a little bit.

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And so that's one thing that's happened.

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And another thing that I've been able to do is really focus more on my family

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and kind of really check in in a big way as to where they are personally with

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themselves, with me, where we're at.

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So it's kind of like this big breath.

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I was like, okay, let's take a little inventory.

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Let's just settle down a little bit and just kind of see where everyone's

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at, what everybody needs so that when I'm ready to pull it back together

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again and move forward, I can do it with a full heart, knowing that, you

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know, everything's sort of taken care of a little bit, including myself.

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I love it.

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Why do you think we find it so difficult to do that, to take

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that time to examine those?

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I mean, what you were saying there about really going deep on one of the

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important relationships in your life.

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That's so challenging for people to do, isn't it?

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It's so much easier to avoid it rather than do that.

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I mean, talk us through how...

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What, how have you come to that stage with all the work you've done?

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What little jewels can you give us?

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If people are thinking, do you know what?

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I know this resonates with me.

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I need to do it, but I, I'm avoiding it.

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Yeah.

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It's probably one of the toughest things about being human.

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I think that I can think of.

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Um, but one of the things that I've learned over the years is responsibility.

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And that is taking responsibility for your own actions and your emotions

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and understanding when you're trying to control someone else's.

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And so if you truly want to do that, you can do it.

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It's very easy to do.

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It just feels very uncomfortable.

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And so practicing that.

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So practicing taking responsibility for everything around you that's yours, um,

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makes it easier and understanding that being vulnerable doesn't mean that you're

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less than, so if you and I don't agree on something, if I understand who I am

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and I'm okay, even if you don't agree with me or even if you get angry with me.

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If I know that going into a situation, then I can manage that situation

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and be okay and be vulnerable and tell the truth about what

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is happening for me or whatever.

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And so that way you can, the only way you can have a, uh, a

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relationship with someone that's true is with real honest communication.

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And that is what I've learned.

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I know it sounds trite, but that's what I'm have learned

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and am still learning to do.

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And there is a fear.

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In being vulnerable.

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It's scary.

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There's a physical fear in being vulnerable, but you've got to know going

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into it, regardless of the reaction of the other person, that you're going

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to be okay because you're okay with you because you can't control them.

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You can't control the outcome, but you're telling your truth or

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what have you with compassion.

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That's the other element.

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You have to have compassion for yourself and the other person.

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So there is a combination of things and it's practice, practice, practice.

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So many people that sort of watch my podcast or listen to the podcast,

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we're all on this journey of self discovery, self improvement, personal

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development, spiritual awakening, whatever labels you want to put on it.

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And it's, it's so important for us to enjoy the journey, isn't it?

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I mean, we can be humans.

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I think we can be such.

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in such a rush to actually get there, achieve somewhere.

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And I don't think we're meant to be getting there.

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I mean, I, my view is that, you know, when we leave this physical body, that's

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probably when we feel we've got there.

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So what have you learned about not rushing it, enjoying the journey?

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Well, I

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have learned that it again, practice, you have to bring yourself back to the moment.

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So it's all about awareness, right?

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You have to be aware when you're not present.

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And that's a hard thing to do because when you're not present, you're not present.

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It's hard to be aware.

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So it's that constant reminder of being present.

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And back one step to what you're talking about during this time off.

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One thing I came across, It's called the gene keys.

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I don't remember if you and I discussed that or not.

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Briefly.

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I'm so pleased you brought that up.

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Yeah, that's right.

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So the gene keys are an amazing tool that you can just go online.

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You can download your information was basically your birthday and a

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few other things, and they'll send you a breakout of your gene keys.

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And it's very, it's pretty self explanatory in terms of what they

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are, but they go very, very deep and each gene, there are 64, each one

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has a shadow where we mostly live.

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It has a gift.

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There's always a gift in a shadow.

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And then there's a siddhi - S I D D H I.

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It's an Indian word for, I think, essence.

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And so it has all three, each gene key has all three.

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And he explains what all three of those are.

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Now you have to probably buy the companion book to break down each

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gene key, but on his Instagram, which is gene keys, just gene keys, he

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has an audio once a week where he.

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Does an audio version of each gene key for about five or six days, which

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I've been listening to regularly and I also have the book so that

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has helped me to become more aware.

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It's helped me to actually see who I am.

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I've never had a reading on it.

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They do offer that somewhere, but I've just been using the book and listening to

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his audios and there's it's so spot on.

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And it helps you to understand.

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We live in our shadows all the time.

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We're living in our fear of each gene key that we live in.

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That fear drives us.

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Yeah.

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I've been listening to it.

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We do this.

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Carry on.

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It's, it's so brilliant.

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The reason I'm laughing.

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Is because when we, we were chatting offline and I was just really delving

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into the gene keys and you were as well and they're so synchronicous, isn't it?

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Because the information is so accurate for my case.

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I have chills, like, oh my gosh, yeah, it's so accurate and

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it's so helpful because it...

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Connects you with yourself and understanding.

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So if you want to take that responsibility for yourself, look at the gene keys

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with the gene keys would point out exactly where your shadows are and

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where, where, if you want to do the work, that's where you do it.

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And then you find the gift in those, in each shadow.

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And when you find that gift, it's like, okay, so this is what I can actually be.

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And I can aspire to be the essence of that, which is the highest.

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Image of that gene key.

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It's a beautiful thing because each one of us are made up of 64 genes.

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The 64 gene keys are made up like six, the 64 and the [unintelligible].

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And so it all kind of comes together very holistically in a

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breakdown of each personality and where if we want, we can do it.

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Like we can.

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We can focus on where our shortcomings are and our shadows

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are, and we can get out of them.

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It's work though.

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So beautifully explained.

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It really is.

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And, and this is why, you know, the age old saying for me, you know, when the

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student's ready, the teacher will come.

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And when the student is really ready, the teacher will disappear.

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And it's going through, I mean, I've got a really good friend, Nirmala, I've done

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some podcasts with her and she is a really brilliant sacred geometry practitioner.

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Okay.

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Oh my goodness, she's amazing.

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So I've been doing some work with her and when I did my Gene Keys, just a

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little free one that you can do online, I was laughing so much, Kelly, because

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it was identical to what she had picked up to read in my sacred geometry.

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I love it.

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Absolutely fascinating.

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And of course, these coincidences, they're there for a reason, and when you're ready

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to take yourself up to the next level.

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So what I love about it, what I've sort of taken for so far, and I'm

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very much a beginner in it, you know, I've only started exploring

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it over the last month or two.

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I've heard about it.

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I've been listening to Richard Rudd's podcast for a long while, but I hadn't

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really delved into it for myself.

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And I, I'd so encourage people to do it because all of us are looking to.

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Really expand ourselves and what next and look if we've got these repeating patterns

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in our life or repeating behaviors, etc.

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This gives you such a brilliant insight, as you said so beautifully.

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If you want to, okay, here's a really good starting place

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for where you can really go.

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And actually, here is a glimmer of what might be coming in your life.

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If you really work through these shadow sides of yourself.

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And it's, it's actually a lot of fun.

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I find it, but it's a slow, it's a very slow go because it's

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not meant to be one and done.

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It's really meant a sort of a lifetime of learning about yourself and what's great

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about, um, um, what is his name again?

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Steven Rudkin.

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No, uh,

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Richard Rudd, excuse me.

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Yes.

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What I love about him is he, and for me that's so important

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about this, is he is not a guru.

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Absolutely.

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He is not there to hold anyone's hand or tell anyone what to do.

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He's basically, here are these tools that I, that were downloaded.

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And with, with him before him somehow, I forget what, how he said it came about,

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but he's here to explore them and to share them and he use them, he says.

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And when you're done with them, be done with them.

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And that's what I really love.

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And so when we talk about those cult spotters, I was talking about

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earlier, how I kind of see the world.

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I did a lot of looking at that first to make sure that he wasn't one of

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these gurus and I wasn't going to fall into another, one of those situations.

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Cause I go full bore into things when I get excited about them.

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Like a lot of people when I'm searching and wow, I found this great thing, but

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I was very careful because this is the first thing that I've really explored.

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Since getting out of the cult.

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And so, um, I, I, I, uh, verify.

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I think it's, it's a good thing.

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No, I absolutely love it.

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And this is the beauty, I think of the world.

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I mean, we talk quite a lot about the downside of modern technology of social

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media pressures on young ones et cetera, and there are a lot of downsides to it.

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But for me, any tool is not inherently good or bad.

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It's.

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How it's being used and both everything can be used for the

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good or can be used for the bad.

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And I think this is a beauty, as you say, it's like people can take and delve into

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it in as much detail as they want to.

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And isn't that what life's about?

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Because everyone's at different stages and has got different

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availability, different priorities.

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But if you're being drawn to something.

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Yeah.

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It's important to really sort of listen to that.

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I mean, have you, well, I know, but you've really, really sort of been

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fine tuning your intuition a lot over the last few years, haven't you?

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Yes.

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So I used to work in energy medicine.

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I was, I am a homeopath and.

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I had a practice where I combined homeopathy with, um,

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Reiki and some other things.

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And so at that time, which was a few years ago prior to NXIVM, I kind of

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got caught up a little bit in my own, I want to say kind of ego around that

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being intuitive and everything else.

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And so after going through that experience, I started looking at

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my intuition very differently.

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We all have it.

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We all have intuition.

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And really, it's a matter of honing it.

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Now.

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It's not it.

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It's not like this gift that some people have and some people don't.

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We all have it.

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And so now I'm much more fine tuning that with practice and with intent, meaning

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my intent for intuition is about helping.

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It's about helping push someone further myself or someone else or helping in

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some way Instead of oh, I have this gift.

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I can read what's going to happen.

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And so there's a lot more responsibility that I have wrapped up in my intuition

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and so my my Fine tuning it and my honing it is all around the

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responsibility of it Versus just having what I used to think was just a gift.

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I'm quite blown away with that because I can think of, I mean,

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it's so profound what you've just said there because so, it's so easy

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for us humans to step into our ego.

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I mean, it's there all the time and obviously it's got a role.

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It's not that we want to get rid of it altogether.

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But what I'm seeing at the moment, and I've done a few interviews

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about it recently, is there's a huge amount of projection.

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People are so concerned with putting their attention on other people, which is

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what I would view as quite a displacement activity in terms of, you know, because

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it stops us really looking at ourselves.

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And what you were saying there about using the intent behind the intuition.

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That can be applied to so many areas when we're looking at so many situations

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and how we judge others and how we judge ourselves and how we show up on

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a daily basis for those in our lives.

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I mean, that's really huge.

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Yeah.

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I mean, my ego pops up all the time, like all the time and I have

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to constantly keep it in check.

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It's like, again, that said awareness and that practice of constantly.

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Looking at myself from the outside in and realizing, oh, there it is

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again, check and let's try something else because ego is a human thing.

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It's just there.

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And you have to work.

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I feel like you have to work around it.

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And so, um.

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That's a practice, you know, and I'll always be practicing on that.

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Yeah.

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A lot of people, you know, if they're working on themselves, they can get

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really, really frustrated because they perceive that other people and loved

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ones and family members, whatever it might be, friends are not doing the same.

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Yeah.

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I think, you know, there's a lot of judgment that goes into

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spirituality and, uh, because...

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But that in itself, that's like an oxymoron, right?

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To be in, to be a spiritual person does not really include judgment as much.

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So I think we all get kind of caught up on making ourselves better for

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ourselves, but then we see other people not doing the work or whatever.

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And that's all part of working on yourself is understanding that everyone's

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in a different place for different reason and having the compassion.

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To understand that they're not less than, they're just in a different place.

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So one thing that I like to do, especially when I was working with

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people a lot, because judgment will come up, um, is to put myself outside

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of myself and look at the situation and understand this person in this area

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might be in kindergarten right now.

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And maybe I'm in 10th grade and that's why we're talking.

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I'm trying to help or even in a friendship.

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Maybe in this person's in second grade in this situation, or maybe I'm

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in second grade in this person's in, you know, high school and hopefully

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they'll lend me that same compassion, but I try to meet people where they are

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without making myself in that place.

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Right.

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So if someone's in, let's say second grade and I want to meet them there, it

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doesn't mean I become a second grader too, it means that I understand what

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it was like to be in second grade.

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And then I try to help from that place of having a little more wisdom in that

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area, perhaps than that person and try to help, because if I lower myself

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down to being a second grader, then you have a playground, whatever, you know,

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something not nice may be going on.

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And so I've had to learn that the hard way.

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Um, because I need to keep myself in my own integrity at all times, but I

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can still meet people where they're at.

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And that's been a very confusing thing for me until, uh, fairly recently.

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Yeah.

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I, I've got to be honest, I'm still working through that.

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And what I find is, um, my resilience for things like that, when I'm feeling really

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well balanced in my physical health.

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My sleep's on point.

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When I've been sort of doing my good habits and things, I

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find it really, really easy.

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And then when I've let myself slip, like, uh, you know, I can

Speaker: 00:29:44

fall off track, but the difference is now I notice it a lot quicker.

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I can see it in myself and I know it's me, even if I respond in ways that I

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might think better about definitely.

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And I think.

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For me, I think also having a sense of humor around it as well.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I mean, there's nothing more boring than trying to be perfect, you know?

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Although I did have got the best ponies ever, and I did say to my daughter that

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I was thinking of changing Romeo's name to perfect Peter 'cause Romeo's perfect.

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But what I love, in all seriousness, it's, it's those of us that have

Speaker: 00:30:17

relationships with animals, for example, you know, our cats, our dogs, our horses,

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our rabbits, whatever it might be.

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Your relationship you've got.

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We view them with such a different pair of eyes, I think, to

Speaker: 00:30:28

often how we deal with humans.

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I'm so much more tolerant if its furry.

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Um, and then if with humans sometimes, um, you know, we see the

Speaker: 00:30:37

conversations that are going on now about politicians and celebrities and,

Speaker: 00:30:43

and AI and all these different things.

Speaker: 00:30:46

And it can be overwhelming to people, but when you take it back to yourself, And

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how you're responding to the situation.

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A lot of these disappear, don't they?

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Oh, yes.

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If

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you take responsibility for your stuff, you can no longer blame the other person.

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It doesn't really work.

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I mean, because if you're blaming, then you're not looking at your responsibility.

Speaker: 00:31:07

It's a very interesting thing because if I take responsibility.

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For my part and whatever, even if it's only 10%, usually it's a little like 50,

Speaker: 00:31:15

50, but let's just say it's only 10%.

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Then if I'm like, Oh yeah, okay, that was mine.

Speaker: 00:31:21

Then it's really hard for me to blame the other person because that's their stuff.

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And, but I did my stuff too.

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So then it becomes a little more on equal playing ground.

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And then it's easier, I think, to work from a place of, yeah.

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Let's see how we can fix this versus you did something wrong.

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It's a totally different thing.

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Yeah.

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I'm not going to let my husband watch this.

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So, you know, I, I do have to laugh because we've just had someone around.

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Look, it does work.

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And I just thought, Oh yeah, perhaps I didn't handle that one quite so well.

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When I was thinking about what my husband would do and what would he

Speaker: 00:31:59

say, I think this is a fun thing.

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You start looking at these relationships and saying, well, okay, yeah, I can

Speaker: 00:32:05

absolutely see my responsibility in this.

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And, you know, we all talk Kelly, don't we about, um, you know, creating

Speaker: 00:32:11

a better world, wanting things to be different in our external environment.

Speaker: 00:32:15

But the crux of the matter is, is.

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All these ancient teachings, all the spiritual teachings, whatever

Speaker: 00:32:21

it is you want to look at, the messages are all the same, aren't we?

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It's all about how we're feeling inside.

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It's simply simple, really.

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Yeah, it's very, very simple.

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I mean, my favorite, uh, person, who's no longer here, I never got to

Speaker: 00:32:36

meet him, so it's one of my regrets, but I do feel like he's around.

Speaker: 00:32:39

It's interesting.

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It was Ram Dass.

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Oh yeah,

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Love him.

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And one of the things that he said was we are all just walking each other home.

Speaker: 00:32:49

Yeah, our mutual friend Bryce, that's one of her favorite sort

Speaker: 00:32:52

of sayings and it's so true.

Speaker: 00:32:54

We remember that in times of challenge, when we're being triggered

Speaker: 00:32:59

by something, it would just be.

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So much easier.

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We'd all get along so much better because we can feel when

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someone's judging us, can't we?

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You know, it's really obvious if we feel in that judgment, which

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then will affect how we respond back if we haven't done the work.

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And then you get into this cycle of reaction, um, that isn't good for anyone.

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And particularly those of us that are parents, at the end of the day, yeah.

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Yeah.

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To actually at least try and be the adults in the family.

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And it doesn't feel good when you're judging, at least for me.

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I don't feel good when I'm judging, but do it anyway because sometimes, like a

Speaker: 00:33:37

five year old, you know, you get caught in the In the action and you don't know

Speaker: 00:33:41

how to get out of it sometimes, you know, so you continue on with the action and,

Speaker: 00:33:45

but that judgment does not feel good.

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There's no way it doesn't.

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And, uh, but like I said, sometimes we don't know what to do.

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So that's why I love to grab that tool of looking at my responsibility

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and saying, okay, what parts mine and then becomes a little easier.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So when people, the other thing that I think is a big learning curve for me

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is the not taking things personally, it can be really good when you're

Speaker: 00:34:17

feeling really on top of your game.

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And, and me personally, I think is such a link between how I'm

Speaker: 00:34:23

feeling physically and how that I therefore respond emotionally.

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And when I'm doing all my good habits and, you know, eating clean,

Speaker: 00:34:31

et cetera, it's so much easier, but they're not taking things personally.

Speaker: 00:34:35

Again, it can set off this chain reaction of, of bringing things

Speaker: 00:34:39

into your life that you don't want.

Speaker: 00:34:40

Got any tips for us on that one?

Speaker: 00:34:43

Well, the first one would be taking care of yourself enough, sleeping what

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you were just saying, because that is part of our responsibility so that we

Speaker: 00:34:50

are in the world in a way that's whole.

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That we can be the best of ourselves and so, you know, it's very difficult

Speaker: 00:34:57

not to take things personally, but again that reminder to yourself

Speaker: 00:35:01

that it's not personal, whatever that person is saying is really a

Speaker: 00:35:07

projection of their whatever's going on inside for them, and we don't know.

Speaker: 00:35:11

And so.

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That for me is my reminder.

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It's just every time that happens.

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I don't know what's going on with this person.

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I have no idea what they've been through, what their story is.

Speaker: 00:35:20

It could have just lost their mother.

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Who knows?

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So I'm not going to take it personally.

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And also if you know who you are and you're a fairly whole person,

Speaker: 00:35:30

it's pretty easy not to take it personally and without judgment.

Speaker: 00:35:33

It's just like, okay.

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That's how you're seeing things, okay?

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And you let it be that, so it's not trying to control the other person's, uh, outcome

Speaker: 00:35:42

or perception or anything like that.

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And it is a practice not to take things personally.

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It is such a practice.

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Yeah, it

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really is.

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And it makes me laugh.

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It's like, you know, some of the things that, that people might say or comments

Speaker: 00:35:55

they might make, they're so ridiculous.

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I can just laugh at them.

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And what I sort of take it, realize is the ones that touch a nerve.

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Or because actually they have touched on something that I, I

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recognize as, you know, having some degree of truth in it sometimes.

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So you can use it as quite a good learning experience, can't

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you, as well, after you've slept?

Speaker: 00:36:17

That's it, yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:19

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: 00:36:20

That's an excellent point, right?

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It's like, if, one thing I would tell my clients all the time is when I'm

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doing a reading, for example, and, Something they feel something in

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their body, like if I say the sky is blue and okay, the sky is blue and

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there's just like, okay, there it is.

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But if I say something that has a trigger in it, it's up to them to

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decide if that is true for them or not.

Speaker: 00:36:43

Right.

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So body will tell you when something's going on when there's a truth or not.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Right.

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And so if I say something that triggers the the person that maybe

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it's something they could want to think about looking at, right?

Speaker: 00:36:55

They don't have to, but let's maybe look at that.

Speaker: 00:36:57

And so same thing with a personal relationship.

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If you feel triggered by something, someone said that triggers most

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likely something that's important to you in some way that needs probably

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needs to be looked at, right?

Speaker: 00:37:09

There's some truth in there.

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And so that's such a great, yeah.

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I'm so glad you said that.

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Yeah.

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I love that about these things because just because I know

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them doesn't mean I do them.

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I do sometimes well and other times I don't.

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So, and I'm, I'm quite happy with that.

Speaker: 00:37:25

So, um, it's a learning curve in terms of happiness.

Speaker: 00:37:33

Again, it's a big thing for people.

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There's a lot of talk about happiness and how people find happiness.

Speaker: 00:37:39

Where were you at with that at the moment?

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You know, I've struggled my whole life with happiness,

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like what is happiness, right?

Speaker: 00:37:47

Um, and so recently I kind of came to the conclusion that

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happiness is really contentment.

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With what is right now, that's happiness, right?

Speaker: 00:37:57

It doesn't mean that everything's great.

Speaker: 00:37:59

It's just finding contentment somehow in the moment of what is.

Speaker: 00:38:04

And because we're never going to be happy all the time.

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I used to be doing things and happy, happy, happy.

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And then I'd have a lull and I wouldn't feel happy.

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And I think something was wrong and then I would get depressed.

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And it was like this cycle, constant cycle.

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And, um.

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You know, I did, uh, some microdosing, um, a series with, with a

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practitioner after my exit from NXIVM.

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And one of the things that the, the mushrooms taught me, because it is a plant

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energy, it's a plant medicine with its own intelligence, really what it taught

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me was that happiness isn't even real.

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Like it's, it's a, it's a inside our self perception of what's going on

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and our judgment on what that is.

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So you could be sitting in a locked up room with no windows and you could

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find contentment in there somehow.

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It's up to you.

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You could find contentment.

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So not that anybody, I probably wouldn't be able to, but I mean, it's possible.

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So I think that is what I really learned about happiness is that it's, it's a, it's

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a matter of finding that in the moment.

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It's such an abstract thing, isn't it?

Speaker: 00:39:16

It's like temperature.

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It's like, I feel the cold a lot more than my husband does.

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So, you know, if you say, where's the line between hot and cold?

Speaker: 00:39:25

It's exactly the same with happiness.

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You know, where's the line between happy and not happy?

Speaker: 00:39:30

It's a choice.

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And I can really see how all these things that used to sort of be quite frustrating

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when people say happiness was a choice.

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I'm now like, oh, yeah, you're right.

Speaker: 00:39:40

It is.

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It is.

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It is a choice.

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And, and I think that, uh, we all have so much to be content about if we

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find what it is that makes us content.

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Right.

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I can be content just sitting by myself with a cup of tea and think this is it.

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This is amazing.

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Right.

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And I'm doing nothing.

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I might be sitting with my dog and my cat and my book and.

Speaker: 00:40:05

Well, that is actual happiness, I think.

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That really is happiness.

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That is heaven, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That is actual happiness, though.

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I know.

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It really is.

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And I do think cats and dogs, in their completely different ways, can teach us so

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much about contentment, about boundaries.

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About, you know, unconditional love, you know, our dogs, you know, every time

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we still love, you know, every single day when you take them out for a walk,

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it's like the first walk I've ever been on that pure unadulterated joy and cats

Speaker: 00:40:35

are just confined contentment anywhere.

Speaker: 00:40:37

It's just pretty much.

Speaker: 00:40:39

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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They can

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. So what are some of your non negotiables

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to keep yourself where you want to be?

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Sort of any habits, any practices that you really think really work for you?

Speaker: 00:40:55

Well, first of all, sleep.

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Non negotiable.

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I, I get eight hours, sometimes nine, no less, no less than seven ever.

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Um, that's a non negotiable for me.

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Um.

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Alone time is also non negotiable.

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I have to have a certain amount, not a lot, but I have to have a

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certain amount of time by myself.

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And, um, another thing non negotiable for me would be, you

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know, boundaries with people and.

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I think, you know, I, I probably have a lot of non negotiables, but I, but,

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but I also have non negotiable in my family is how we treat people inside

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our family and outside our family.

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That's a non negotiable, uh, needs to be, people need to be treated

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like human beings regardless of where they come from, regardless of.

Speaker: 00:41:47

Uh, their circumstances, regardless of whatever, whoever they are, it

Speaker: 00:41:51

doesn't matter, they deserve to be treated like human beings and that's a

Speaker: 00:41:53

non negotiable for sure in my family.

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Um, there's a lot more, but those are my main, I think, that I really

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stick to.

Speaker: 00:42:02

It's really important.

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Do you think for people to find their non negotiables because, you know, so much

Speaker: 00:42:06

time, don't give enough thought to that, but it can really transform your life.

Speaker: 00:42:11

I never thought about it before, ever.

Speaker: 00:42:12

It's the first time anyone's ever asked me, and it's a very good question.

Speaker: 00:42:16

Um, I probably have, like I said, too many, but um, that might be

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something I want to look at too.

Speaker: 00:42:22

But I just think...

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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I'd have to think about that.

Speaker: 00:42:29

I think that...

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It's a great question because that the non negotiables drive who you are and

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your day and what you're, you will, what is okay and what's not, and it

Speaker: 00:42:43

drives your morals and ethics as well.

Speaker: 00:42:46

So yeah, that's a great question.

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So the final question because I'm conscious of time, I really

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could speak to you all day.

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Um, but I, I think.

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With the experiences you've been through, you've been through something that's quite

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unique in terms of your NXIVM experience and then the public, um, you know,

Speaker: 00:43:06

recognition of that and what was going on and everything and then how you've

Speaker: 00:43:10

dealt with it and the documentaries.

Speaker: 00:43:12

Um, do you feel.

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That people can change, that people can really change.

Speaker: 00:43:17

Do you feel that people that have done bad things can turn over

Speaker: 00:43:21

a new leaf and really mean it?

Speaker: 00:43:24

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker: 00:43:26

I think anyone can if they choose to.

Speaker: 00:43:30

You have, it's a choice.

Speaker: 00:43:31

You absolutely have to choose.

Speaker: 00:43:33

Now, are there people who I feel less likely can would

Speaker: 00:43:38

do that or choose to do it?

Speaker: 00:43:39

Absolutely.

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But I, I believe as a human being, we're given the tools to To make those

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choices if we choose to be a good person.

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That's what I truly believe that.

Speaker: 00:43:51

I love it.

Speaker: 00:43:52

And the reason I asked that question is, um, so without mentioning names,

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I've seen quite a lot of people who, you know, people that might be.

Speaker: 00:44:00

More public about certain things and people have, almost like leopard

Speaker: 00:44:04

never changes their spots, but I have personally seen in my own life people

Speaker: 00:44:08

that have had difficult situations they've gone through that might

Speaker: 00:44:11

have resulted them as not an excuse, but a definite contributor to them.

Speaker: 00:44:15

Act in certain ways.

Speaker: 00:44:16

Mm-hmm.

Speaker: 00:44:16

make remarkable transformations.

Speaker: 00:44:19

Yeah.

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In how they've chosen to live their life and the good that they've done.

Speaker: 00:44:23

And so that's why I sort of asked that because sometimes it can

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be quite hard to, to sort of.

Speaker: 00:44:30

We talk about being in the present moment a lot, but actually when it

Speaker: 00:44:33

comes to people that we've got a past relationship with or a past perception

Speaker: 00:44:37

of, whether we know them in person or whether they're just a public

Speaker: 00:44:40

figure, can be really hard to look at who they are right here, right now.

Speaker: 00:44:47

Yeah.

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And I think if you can try someone on, you know, and that

Speaker: 00:44:52

actually, I think came from NXIVM.

Speaker: 00:44:54

I think I learned that NXIVM.

Speaker: 00:44:55

So there were a few things in there.

Speaker: 00:44:57

One non negotiable would be no more cults, just FYI.

Speaker: 00:45:00

But, um, the trying someone on is, is like, I have to find a, probably a

Speaker: 00:45:06

different phrase for that, but being able to step into someone's shoes in

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their life for a minute, not actually, you can't actually do it, but you

Speaker: 00:45:12

can imagine what it might be like.

Speaker: 00:45:14

Yeah.

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And so when you can do that, if you see someone, a public figure, what

Speaker: 00:45:19

have you, have been through some crazy stuff, it's so easy to judge.

Speaker: 00:45:23

But if you can step into their, how possibly you might have fallen

Speaker: 00:45:27

into the same role, or how you might have made the same choices.

Speaker: 00:45:33

It's a lot easier to see that person as a human being and to not judge as

Speaker: 00:45:36

much and to find a pathway, even in your head for them as a way forward.

Speaker: 00:45:43

So you almost like give them energetically, you're giving them

Speaker: 00:45:46

the space because you're not judging them to move forward in your head.

Speaker: 00:45:52

So it's kind of a beautiful thing when you think about it, if we all did that

Speaker: 00:45:56

and made space for people to be their best selves and move forward in a better

Speaker: 00:46:01

way, the world could be a different place.

Speaker: 00:46:04

I so agree with you, particularly with what you said earlier about the

Speaker: 00:46:08

boundaries as well, because it doesn't, uh, when we're saying that, we're

Speaker: 00:46:11

absolutely not talking about letting people, uh, giving people excuses

Speaker: 00:46:15

or enabling them to behave badly.

Speaker: 00:46:17

Quite the opposite, giving people an opportunity to change, and if

Speaker: 00:46:21

they choose not to, then that's a completely different matter.

Speaker: 00:46:25

You know, but actually, I think it's something I've been thinking a lot

Speaker: 00:46:29

more about recently, and sometimes, you know, we've seen a lot of divisions

Speaker: 00:46:33

in families over the last year.

Speaker: 00:46:35

And, you know, it's very hard with the family are the ones that often teach

Speaker: 00:46:41

us the most in terms of how much we are prepared to see people for where they're

Speaker: 00:46:45

at now, and in a non-judgmental way so.

Speaker: 00:46:49

We have to keep reminding ourselves.

Speaker: 00:46:50

It's all lessons.

Speaker: 00:46:51

It's all lessons.

Speaker: 00:46:53

And yeah, and, and just enjoy the journey and have a bit of fun with

Speaker: 00:46:57

it, with yourself and with everything you're going through along the way.

Speaker: 00:47:00

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:47:02

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:47:03

It's, it's fun, you know?

Speaker: 00:47:04

It's a fun, it's a fun journey.

Speaker: 00:47:07

If you could accept that, it's not going to be easy.

Speaker: 00:47:10

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:47:11

It's just not for anybody.

Speaker: 00:47:12

It doesn't matter who they are.

Speaker: 00:47:13

It's not an easy journey, but it can be really fun when you, when you

Speaker: 00:47:16

play with it and just sort of look at how, how funny or is how ridiculously

Speaker: 00:47:21

weird this is and just go with it.

Speaker: 00:47:24

And then, you know, of course you're making choices all the time.

Speaker: 00:47:26

Every minute you're making choices, you have to be aware of what

Speaker: 00:47:28

choices you are making and the repercussions of those choices.

Speaker: 00:47:32

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:47:32

But opening up that energetic field of possibility and understanding what's the

Speaker: 00:47:38

best choice for everyone in this moment.

Speaker: 00:47:40

You know, you can go really far.

Speaker: 00:47:42

You really can.

Speaker: 00:47:44

It, it is all about those choices and it's all about, you

Speaker: 00:47:48

know, where do you want to go?

Speaker: 00:47:50

Do you want to really move forward in your life?

Speaker: 00:47:53

You know, one of my other guests was saying, you know, you literally are either

Speaker: 00:47:56

going backwards or you're moving forward.

Speaker: 00:47:58

The one thing that's constant is change.

Speaker: 00:48:00

So it's sort of ownership and responsibility for that as well.

Speaker: 00:48:05

Um, thank you so much, Kelly.

Speaker: 00:48:07

I really, really, really love speaking to you.

Speaker: 00:48:09

I can't wait 'til you're next in the UK so we can actually meet up in person or

Speaker: 00:48:13

perhaps I'll be over near you sometime.

Speaker: 00:48:15

Who knows?

Speaker: 00:48:15

Who knows what the future holds?

Speaker: 00:48:17

Are there any final sort of things that you want to leave anyone with for today?

Speaker: 00:48:23

Um, not in particular.

Speaker: 00:48:25

I think we covered so much today, but just, I think,

Speaker: 00:48:29

uh, really not being so hard.

Speaker: 00:48:34

On yourself, you know, people are so hard on themselves and this is a

Speaker: 00:48:37

tough gig down here and just not being so hard on yourself and perfection

Speaker: 00:48:44

isn't accessible, it just isn't, but perfectly imperfect is and seeing

Speaker: 00:48:49

yourself that way and you make a mistake.

Speaker: 00:48:51

Gosh, darn it.

Speaker: 00:48:52

I made a mistake, you know, but it's okay.

Speaker: 00:48:55

I'm human and just move on.

Speaker: 00:48:57

And I think that that is what I'd like to leave everyone with.

Speaker: 00:48:59

And .. . This book.

Speaker: 00:49:01

Oh!

Speaker: 00:49:02

Before we go without, please tell everyone about it.

Speaker: 00:49:05

Oh, can you see it?

Speaker: 00:49:07

So read the

Speaker: 00:49:10

title,

Speaker: 00:49:10

it's called The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue, and it's a fabulous book about a

Speaker: 00:49:16

girl from the 1700s in France, and she makes a deal with the devil unknowingly,

Speaker: 00:49:24

and she ends up becoming immortal.

Speaker: 00:49:26

And not only is she immortal, but no one remembers her.

Speaker: 00:49:29

So if she walks into a room.

Speaker: 00:49:31

People will engage with her and the moment she leaves the room, they forget

Speaker: 00:49:35

she was ever there and her whole...

Speaker: 00:49:39

she wants so badly to be remembered.

Speaker: 00:49:41

So she's trying to make a mark on the world somehow.

Speaker: 00:49:44

And she can't.

Speaker: 00:49:45

It's an over the span of 300 years to present day, New York

Speaker: 00:49:48

City, where she meets a boy.

Speaker: 00:49:49

Who, um, remembers her and she, they, they come together and they form a

Speaker: 00:49:56

pact and I won't tell you anymore because I don't want to give it away.

Speaker: 00:50:00

But the great thing about this book is that she is in

Speaker: 00:50:03

relationship with the devil.

Speaker: 00:50:06

So not in a, it's in relationship in a way that she's trying

Speaker: 00:50:09

to survive these 300 years.

Speaker: 00:50:10

And it's, it's a fascinating book.

Speaker: 00:50:12

It's just, it's fascinating and ends really well.

Speaker: 00:50:14

So I love this book.

Speaker: 00:50:16

I'm gonna, I need something different to read.

Speaker: 00:50:18

I'm gonna go straight out and get that.

Speaker: 00:50:20

But we can't leave without saying the other book that everyone needs to get,

Speaker: 00:50:24

all the links to Kelly will be below.

Speaker: 00:50:26

But I can honestly say this book is brilliant and I'm not just

Speaker: 00:50:30

flattering Kelly, I promise you.

Speaker: 00:50:32

But I was, Hysterics reading this book.

Speaker: 00:50:35

I was in tears reading this book.

Speaker: 00:50:37

I could identify with so much of what you were discussing there.

Speaker: 00:50:42

It was absolutely brilliant.

Speaker: 00:50:43

And um, well done.

Speaker: 00:50:46

You, well done you.

Speaker: 00:50:47

'cause it's really, really brave to write a book like that.

Speaker: 00:50:50

I, I, I really is hats off to you because it is really raw, it's really honest and

Speaker: 00:50:56

there's so much we can all get from it.

Speaker: 00:50:58

So thank you so much.

Speaker: 00:51:00

Oh, thank you.

Speaker: 00:51:01

Thank you so much.

Speaker: 00:51:02

This was awesome.

Speaker: 00:51:03

Oh, it's so lovely.

Speaker: 00:51:04

We hope you've all enjoyed it as much as we have.

Speaker: 00:51:07

And thank you so much for everyone for listening.

Speaker: 00:51:09

And I'm sure we will be back with another one in the not too distant future.

Speaker: 00:51:13

Thank you so much, Kelly.

Speaker: 00:51:15

Bye.

Speaker: 00:51:16

Thank you.

Speaker: 00:51:39

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen.

Speaker: 00:51:42

And if you feel inspired, please do share with your friends and family.

Speaker: 00:51:47

My goal is to inspire as many people as I can to live their best lives.

Speaker: 00:51:52

to stay curious and to raise their consciousness and that of the collective.

Speaker: 00:51:58

So to do this, I need to reach as many people as possible.

Speaker: 00:52:01

And this needs your help.

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If you feel drawn, would you be willing to share your favorite

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episode with five different people?

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This helps us spread the word and also helps me encourage some exciting new

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guests to take part in this podcast.

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If you feel drawn to do that, I will be very, very grateful.

Speaker: 00:52:22

All the links and discount codes where applicable for all the

Speaker: 00:52:25

products that I support are on my two websites, catherine edwards.

Speaker: 00:52:31

life and catherine edwards academy.

Speaker: 00:52:35

com All of the products are personally tried and tested by me.

Speaker: 00:52:40

My family and my clients.

Speaker: 00:52:43

And finally, please do press the follow or subscribe button, depending

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